it's gravel. >> maybe they needed a plaque or something. what do you say to something like that? >> jon: go figure. >> now it's gone. sad, actually. >> jon: thanks for joining us. "america live" starts right now. >> megyn: fox news alert, any moment now attorney general eric holder will take the hot seat before congress where we could see some fierce questions and big news on a couple of growing controversies. welcome to "america live," everyone. i'm megyn kelly. let's get right to it the attorney general is expected to face aggressive questioning on several important topics, including the d.o.j. investigation of the irs now for its admitted improper targeting of groups that support conservative policies. all right? so the irs targets conservatives and now the doj is looking into why the irs did that and whether it may have committed a crime. the doj wide ranging secret

the scandal that the doj is at the center of. it's accused of doing something wrong. he have to answer for that today although the attorney general yesterday defended that action. and he will also be asked about the handling of fbi intel in the run-up to the boston marathon bombings. keep in mind, we reported here first a couple of weeks ago that the doj and a magistrate judge effectively shut down the fbi's questioning of dzhokhar tsarnaev, the boston marathon bombing suspect just 16 hours into the questioning. the fbi said it wasn't done. why did they do that? eric holder has yet to explain that. he will be asked about it today. one thing to listen for. we are hearing new suggestions that the white house needs to appoint a special council to look into particular the irs scandal rather than leaving the doj in charge of an investigation that could

eventually, no evidence of it right now, some are already suggesting and the mere possibility may warrant independent counsel that this may link back to the administration. how do you investigate your boss is the question. do we need an independent council to take a look at what the irs did to these conservative groups trust eric holder's doj to do this? host of power play on foxnews.com live. let's start with the last one because that's the question about we don't know exactly where this goes. i have now read the inspector general report. i want to tell reporters we have a comprehensive piece produced the incredible details. it is worse than you thought in our next hour that we are going to show to you. in that report the inspector general says all the employees we talked to said no one outside the irs told us to do this to the conservative groups. so we have the word of some of these irs employees saying no one outside the irs told us to do it.

is that sufficient to resolve the independent counsel question or do you think this is likely to continue to burden the administration? eric holder is going to be prelsed to give this somebody other than himself. >> they are going to need more. and if you are the -- if i were the president, it would say a lot of bad things about the america electorate. if i were president, i will tell you what i would be doing today, i would come out and find a way to get in public and i would say this. i would say everybody who was within 1,000 cubic yards of this scandal of targeting my political opponents leave. walk out the door right now. you are on paid leave but get away from your computer. get away from your secure access, walk out oso the investigation can proceed. you won't be accused of any coverup and mischief done. find a republican of good standing i recommend judd gregg former senator of new hampshire, i'm appointing this person i'm giving him, word of the week, unfettered access to the treasury to find any and

all things that he can find. i want him to go on a fact finding mission and make recommendations. he has got to do it now. if he doesn't do it, there is going to have to be an independent investigation not to the president's choosing. >> where is the harm to this administration if as these irs employees state no one outside of the irs had anything to do with this. this was just irs employees deciding to target conservatives. so if the white house and no one else had anything to do with it, where is the harm? why doesn't the president just say absolutely. whatever is going to give the public confidence that we, we destroyed. the irs itself that has destroyed that public confidence. that is an independent agency. it's supposed to be independent. we are supposed to believe in its impartiality. that is critical to its functioning in this country. and they have destroyed it they have destroyed it and the inspector general just secured them on that on how impartial they appear. on how partial they appear, i should say and how inappropriate their behavior was and how they are have undermined the public confidence.

where is the harm to president obama saying i didn't do it but i'm going to solve it and i'm going to do it in whatever way instills the most confidence in the public decision making if that means a special counsel, let's go for it. >> now that we have democrats, including, we just heard, sandy levin from michigan who is the ranking democrat on the ways and means committee says it's time for these people to go. how's come the same people are at the irs. you are right, this report -- their own report is jaw-dropping, it's worse than we thought. how come these people are still there? why hasn't the president acted? soon you get to the point the answer will be either that he is indifferent or afraid of what would be found. neither of those is particularly good. my goodness, the man must act. he must do something. the credibility of his administration son the line. >> megyn: i don't understand more so today than the other day, why the president used that word if, if these people did this, if these people did

that now that i see the inspector general report, you are telling me, fox news just got it last night. other news organizations got it earlier. you telling me president obama couldn't have got it when it was leaked on monday? this report talks about how they inaprot appropriately targeted conservatives. they called into question the irs's impartiality. about how the management has been ineffective provided inefficient oversight exposed the lawsuits. does not consider its concerns to be resolved by what the irs has said in response to him on this. i don't understand. the i.g. takes an independent objective look at the agency over a period of months. conducts an audit, reaches these conclusions in black and white and says you did it then the irs doesn't come out and say no, we didn't. they are saying you are right, we did it. that's all in the i.g. report. not only does the irs say you are right we did it.

we will do these things to try to fix it we still have the president saying if they did it, if they did it, if they did it, then there is going to be fall-out. >> if the target of abuse in this case is the president's political enemies, whether the president ordered it or not, it means that independent oversight is necessary. there is no other way to look at it even if the president had nothing to do with it, even if this was totally beyond the imaginings, the worst imagining of anybody inside the white house, the very fact that the president's opponents were the targets, an enemy's list was formed. even if not at the behest of the president, he had to find somebody with credibility to step in and lead the investigation and i guarantee you. i guarantee you if he won't do it it, congress will do it for him. >> i want to tell the viewers what we are seeing here. eric holder going before the house judiciary committee. now, we have been given an advanced copy of the attorney general's statement, his opening statement, and he is not

going to touch on any of the issues that are in the news today that we have been discussing. but, you can bet he is going to be asked about all of that as soon as they get to the q and a you will hear the attorney general right here. you won't miss a moment of that but, you know, we're not going to take all the platitudes that precede it. we want to hear about the news of the day. call us crazy. i want to ask you, chris, whether eric holder is now potentially in trouble because we have got this -- the irs thing is not on him. he is investigating that. but the spying on the nation's largest wire service, the associated press is on him. now, he didn't personally sign off on it but his deputy a.g. did. this was done by the u.s. attorney. this is one of the main things they want to talk to him today. brian priebus the head of the rnc said this is it. this is over. eric holder has had enough passes. he has had his nine lives and it's time for him to

step down. >> well, he is going to say today, i guarantee you, i don't know anything about it i recuse myself from that and i can't answer any questions. next, please. and he is going to brush this off. but, you know, i was talking to judge andrew napolitano today, and he made a very good point. it's time not just to talk to holder but it's time for congress to start calling forward his deputies, deputy attorney general coal and others to get them together and start comparing their stories in realtime about how somebody thought it was a good idea fishing expedition of this magnitude against this central and hugely important news agency. why was that a good idea and were they at all concerned about the chilling effect it would have on sources and reporters? >> megyn: at all concerned about it or focused on it in an attempt to intentionally suppress it that's what their critics say. they knew of it would chill sourcing and that's exactly what they wanted. that's the allegation. chris, we will continue to

monitor this. thank you, sir. >> you bet. >> megyn: okay. so we are watching this house judiciary hearing. again, the a.g. has sort of his laundry list of things that he needs to sort of update congress on. and then they are going to get into the q and a, and they are going to talk about the irs looking into the conservative groups about the department of justice spying on the associated press. and then about benghazi. i mean, i should say about the boston marathon bombing and why, why, why did they shut down the fbi's interrogation of the boston marathon suspect 16 hours into interrogation. the fbi says was not complete. the fbi reports eric holder. we'll hear him defend that as well. when we get to the q. and a. you will see that live. fox news alert now in addition to awaiting the attorney general, we are also waiting to hear from the white house press secretary, jay carney. he may face new questions today on the benghazi investigation. this comes as we hear the heads in charge of the

state department's review of that terror attack, those two guys who headed up the so-called arb, accountability review board, that they are now volunteering to testify before congress. this, after they took major criticism when it was revealed that they never bothered to question former secretary of state hillary clinton. they said they knew where the responsibility belonged. in their view it wasn't with her even they they never talked with her. our chief washington correspondent james rosen in washington with an update. james? >> good afternoon. while house committee chairman darrell issa readies his committee on a panel this friday looming showdown two men whose report on benghazi and other g.o.p. lawmakers have formally challenged. former charms of the joint chiefs of staff admirable mullen and pickerring screen right formally notified congressman issa of their desire to testify

publicly before the oversight panel in order to defend the final report of the blue ribbon panel that they headed called the arb accountability review board against claims that their report was incomplete or skewed. we believe that such criticisms are unfounded and if left unaddressed underline the essential work that the board has done as well as the purpose of the congressionally mandated accountability review board process pickerring rose to issa yesterday adding it is therefore important that we have the opportunity to appear before a public hearing before the committee and answer directly questions regarding the board's procedures, findings, and recommendations. benghazi has dominated the headlines and white house press briefing since last wednesday in when a state department whistleblower accounted among other things efforts to get whistle blowers. 'pickerring and mullen concluded no military assets could have been rallied in time. megyn? >> megyn: james rosen. this one is not over by a long shot. attorney general eric holder leaked information may have put american lives at risk and that is why the

justice department seized the a.p.'s phone records without telling the a.p., he says. today we will see what the associated press has to say about that and the former chairman of the naacp saying it's all right for the irs to target conservative groups because they're the taliban wing of american politics. to keep 'em ° like calcium supplements can help your bones, osteo bi-flex can help your joints. osteo bi-flex... now available in all major retailers and warehouse clubs. in abefore i do any projects on on my own.st at angie's list, you'll find reviews written by people just like you. i love my contractor, and i am so thankful to angie's list for bringing us together. angie's list -- reviews you can trust.

>> megyn: fox news alert. watching the white house where jay carney could face tough new questions on the investigation. white house grown defensively how detail for the terror attack changed after four americans killed last september. whistle blowers testifying on capitol hill. we had the talking points and what that was done to them revealed publicly and how involved the state department was despite earlier denials. joining me now doug schoen, a former pollster for president clinton and fox news contributor and pat caddell fox news contributor who served as the pollster for jimmy carter. the president came out this week and jay carney came out this week and said this

is what you need to know about benghazi, it's been totally politicized by the other side. there is -- this is a side show about the talking points. and they seem to not understand why we are so focused on talking points that they told us they never touched changing one word consulate to diplomatic post. now we know for a fact according to the reports were heavily modified with state department i object put and now we are told white house input as well. your take on it, pat? >> yeah, well, let me start by saying first of all when i heard the president and jay carney saying what he they were saying about side show all i could think of was third rate burglary. the description the nixon white house used to describe watergate look. the issue here is simple. not simple but it's not the molehill it's the mountain that matters. the talking points, there is no mention in any of the versions of the talking points about this video. that video was imposed as a

last-minute substitution for a narrative. who did it? how did it come to be that we don't know. that was the issue. canard by bow owe joe biden, hillary clinton and everyone else. the question to the effect is what has not been answered by benghazi what was the president doing that night. we all know what he was doing the night of the bin laden raid because we saw the pictures. where is the pictures of benghazi. where is the pictures of what he was doing? americans were dying. those are the central questions that need to be answered. and the president is saying it's all politics and jay carney it is protest doth too much lady mcbeth. >> megyn: hillary clinton said when she testified before congress what difference does it make whether it was protest or armed militia outside of the consulate. what difference does it make? we have the president saying this is all a side

show this business about the talking points. let me posit to you something. the talking points which we now know redacted, took out, among other things, the cia's warning. it's notation of the fact that it had warned state repeatedly about a deteriorating situation there when it came to security. and now we know the state department officials had also warned leadership about the deteriorating situation there. the question is whether that was all removed from those talking points because it was a cya by the state department and they decided to handicap the rest of us with respect to information to protect themselves. how is that not relevant? >> well, of course it's relevant. i think it's also something bigger. and pat and i have talked about it and i think we believe that bottom line, this was a political judgment by a white house in an election campaign that had as their central narrative that they succeeded in dismantling al qaeda and in getting usama bin laden.

and the fact that there was a terrorist attack within seven or eight weeks of the election on the anniversary of 9/11 was something that they politically could not stomach countenance or deal with. so the yya that you spoke of happened at all levels, the state department, the white house, and bottom line, we need to reinterview people. we need to ape the questions pat raised. we need to get to the bottom of it, megyn. >> megyn: you know, just to take the viewers back. they said that the smoking gun memo to the state department went out in august of 2012. that the memo went out. classified state department cable warning the offers of secretary clinton the consulate could not withstand a coordinated assault. could not. and that islamist militias 10 of them and a.q. training camps were within benghazi. that's the smoking gun memo. hillary clinton was asked about it when she testified before congress whether she knew about that cable. shear is what she said. >> were you aware of this cable -- this august 16th

cable? >> congressman, that cable did not come to my attention. i have made it very clear that the security cables did not come to my attention. >> megyn: so, pat, my question to you is, it does matter, does it not, whether we were attacked by terrorists, by al qaeda linked terrorists and whether the cia, the state department, and the white house had reason to believe that when they saw the attack unfold on 9/11. >> of course. of course it matters. it matters first of all for the truth. it matters because of the reality. and misleading the american people. look, we know what doug secretary of defense is we have discussed about the narrative. they needed to protect the politics of this. what were they doing? they didn't think, you know, it happens on september 11th, on 9/11, you don't think that has anything to do with terrorism? you the white house was so

invested in foreign policy and claim that al qaeda was beat and none of this matters and we are on the right track meg negative that we may not have gotten the right information. i want to carry you over. hard break. we will pick it up after. stand by. [ musick ] i knew there were a lot of tech jobs

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>> megyn: fox news alert. now the attorney general eric holder is offering his opening statement. we received a copy in advance. he is going to talk about right here the accomplishments of the doj recently, the criminal investigations that the doj is working. and then they are going to get to the q. and a. that is when we are going to join on the news of the day. he is just updating them, in other words, the judiciary committee on sort of where the doj is in life. that's done reroutinely. when they get to sort of the q. and a. he was just sworn in by the way so he is under oath.

joining me is doug schoen and pat caddell. pat, i want to let you finish your thought. >> my thought was the need to preserve a political narrative because they were worried about the election. exactly the same thing that the nixon people were doing with watergate. i'm not saying it was a crime there. it was highly wrong and immoral. eventually it does constitute, i believe a coverup. >> megyn: doug, what do you make of the attempt now to say it's over and anybody who pushes further on this is just about politicizing the matter? because we still don't know although we know vic at this nuland the state's department spokesman at the time was the one saying change the talking points more. this still does not satisfy my building leadership. what building leadership? who exactly? who was pulling the strings at the state department and the white house? >> those are all very, very good questions, megyn. i think the direct answer to your question is it isn't over. we need answers to those

questions. and at this point, my feeling is any right-thinking person, democrat, republican, or independent, should want everybody who was interviewed to be reinterviewed so we get answers to the questions pat was raising. who authored the talking points? who came up with the narrative about the video? what was the president doing? where was he? what was he hearing and why was he doing what he was doing? we need answers and to say it's all over or as jay carney said it's old news or the president said it's a side show i think is just plain wrong and unfair to the american people. >> megyn: we had a lot of viewers email in response to that side show comments ask the families of the victims if this is a side show. they don't think so. >> it sure isn't. >> megyn: go ahead, pat. >> i was going to say that is, in part, the issue here. they have perpetrated. families, we need to know, and the problem here is that they have leaned on everything. the arb report which was -- is the authors now want to come and testify wasn't

about the talking points. it was only about the security issues. they didn't interview everyone. they refer to it the way the white house and nixon administration used to talk about the dean report for god's sake the end all of end all we don't know anything. >> john bolton was on talking about who cares about the arb report. they only know what the state department people told them. who wants to hear from them? we want to hear from hillary clinton. this time it would be nice if the people on capitol hill would ask her some actual questions instead of giving so he little questions. >> i think a fair minded person wants to hear from everybody. the arb report. admiral mullen to hear from ambassador pickerring and yes to hear from secretary clinton. hopefully the national security advisor tom donilon would want to weigh in because he was the point man on 9/11 when this tragedy was going down. and i think we want to hear from the whole range of officials that were involved and understand what, in fact, really happened. >> megyn: what about tom

donilon. most people don't know who he is and why what connection he he had to benghazi. you wrote a piece that was really tough on him. you are not a big fan of tom donilon's. >> i know him. he is the first political operative who has been appointed national security advisor. and he is -- he has a whole history of politicizing everything. he is not of the statue henry kissinger or some of the people we have had or condoleezza rice in that job. and he is the invisible man in all of this. >> megyn: again national security advisor. >> who do you think was coordinating all of this? and he -- what he does is he leaks selectively. people leave him out of the source. he at the bottom of all of this i guarantee you on the talking points and all of what happened that night is tom donilon. not only does he need to be interviewed under oath, we need a select committee until we have a full investigation because the white house is in a full

mode which is not to be truthful with the american people. let's face it they want to say it's politics. the president was just, i thought, really angry and we need to know the truth. those families need to know the truth. it wasn't a video that killed their children their family members. it was al qaeda. >> megyn: they said we changed one word. >> we were all mislead. >> megyn: they changed one word consulate to diplomatic post. now we see the heavily edited talking points edited at the request of the state department and with input from the white house. that is the reporting and, yet, they refuse to release everything. if you have nothing to hide, release all the email back and forth. release all the versions of the talking points and release the presidential daily briefs which show us what the president says he was receiving realtime. >> absolutely right. >> megyn: he claims it mirrors what susan rice says so let's see them. thank you very much. >> good, megyn, thank you. >> megyn: breaking news in the case of an american spy

who was just kicked out of russia. we will talk about how this cold war style drama may be connected to the boston bombing investigation. we've update you there we are waiting for the q. and a. period of eric holder's appearance. >> do you swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you god. >> megyn: of the appearance of our attorney general. you can see he was sworn. in he is under oath. he will be questioned on everything from the irs scandal targeting conservatives to the doj spying on the associated press to what's going on with the boston bombing investigation. why didn't the fbi flag the tsarnaev brothers, the locals in boston when they were called to their attention and why was their interrogation shut down prematurely in the fbi's view. they answered to eric holder and he had no problem with judge shutting it down. he has yet to be asked about that in any legitimate forum. it was an red carpet

somebody asked him about it we will hear what he says. next hour wait until you see what we found in the inspector general's report looking into this irs controversy. it's worse than you know. i'm here at my house on thanksgiving day,

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>> megyn: fox news alert. now we are getting to it. the attorney general was just asked about the associated press, the spying on them. let's listen to what he says. >> yesterday, the decision to issue this subpoena was made by the people who are presently involved in the case.

the matter is being supervised by the deputy attorney general. i am not familiar with the reasons why the -- why it was constructed in the way that it was because i'm simply not a part of the case. >> one of my understanding is one of the requirements compelling process from a media process to give the media yts. do you know why that was not done. >> are exceptions to that rule. i do not know, however, with regard to this particular case why that was or was not done. i simply don't have a factual basis to answer that question. >> and it's also been reported that the associated press refrained from releasing this story for a week in the the department confirmed that doing so would not jeopardize national security interest. that indicates that the a.p. was amenable to working with you on this matter. if that is the case, why was it necessary to subpoena the telephone records. did you seek the a.p.'s assistance in the first place and, if not, why not? >> again, mr. chairman, i

don't know what happened there about -- with the interaction between the a.p. and the justice department. i was recused from the case. >> i take it that you or others in the justice department will be forthcoming with those answers to those questions as you explore why this was handled what appears to be contrary to the law and standard procedure. >> well, again, there are exceptions to some of the rules that you pointed out and i have faith in the people that were responsible for this case that they were aware of the rules and that they followed them i don't have a factual basis to answer the questions that you asked because i was recused. i don't know what has happened in this matter. >> thank you very much. my time has expired and i now recognize the gentleman from michigan, mr. conyers for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i note that some of our

members have been outspoken in opposition to the free flow of information act in the past and have commented publicly about their outrage over the associated press subpoenas. but now i'm very delighted to learn that many have changed their attitude on this and i'm particularly glad to welcome the support of chairman darrell issa as we move forward with this legislation. mr. attorney general, there has been criticism about tom perez as assistant attorney general and that

he may have mismanaged employees at the civil rights division and the department of justice. are you able to comment on mr. perez's track record as manager of the division and allegations that he politicized enforcement of civil rights laws? >> yeah. i think that. >> megyn: so now they are going off in other matters. let me make clear what we are listening for today. news on the big topics of the day, the irs, the associated press, the boston bombing investigations and with all due respect to tom perez, who has been nominated now to head up the head of labor, he is not news of the day. so, this is all streaming by the way at foxnews.com live so you can watch it there. i want monica crowley and kirsten powers to join me. they have been standing by to comment on these. the first question he was asked by republican good

lat from virginia how about the interrogation of the boston bosoming suspect he said you know i really do think we need to extend the public safety admission and we should work with congress to do that that is what he said a couple of years ago on meet the press on the wake of a terror suspect getting arrested for the underwear bombing attempt over detroit. he never did it. he never did it. there was never any follow-up. so now once again, an interrogation of a terror suspect guess shutdown prematurely. that's the word of the fbi. and once again we have eric holder saying i think we should work to expand the exception. there is question whether that can be done by congress. yes i would love to do that nothing ever gets done. >> right. the operative word there is but. we do know from this administration, this attorney, this general and secretary of state and on down, any time they are really interested in accomplishing something

say socialized medicine they move pretty fast to get it done. can you tell where his priorities are in this case. by the way, healey, there was nothing stopping them from actually extending the amount of time that mr. tsarnaev was going to be questioned and held and detained. there was no rush. there was nothing really that was encouraging them to move in and give him his miranda rights. all of this technical talk and jargon that eric holder has engaged in now is all sort of meaningless. isn't it? >> megyn: second question he was asked by republican goodlet he was asked by the associated press and the u.s. attorney for the district of columbia went before a judge, we think or a grand jury in may of last year and got a subpoena for two months' worth work of associated press reporters. 100 reporters would have fallen in the scope, home phones, cell phone,s, eric holder's deputies were poring over them at the

same time the doj reporting on them and others. they never told the associated press they claim there is when the national security is at stake. the attorney general was going with it wasn't me. i recused myself. i can't help you out on that. >> yeah. this is sort of the problem because he is recused can't speak about this. he also was asked how many other reporters, you know, out of of outside of the a.p. this has answered to. he didn't go over that. that seem like the type of thing so rare that you would have a number of how often in your evidence that is happening. this is chilling behavior by the government and it's meant to keep whistle blowers from talking it reporters bottom line. and he said that when he came out and talked about the fact this was such a serious leak, it had to be investigated.

you know, read between the lines. the point is no whistleblower is going to want to call the a.p. or any reporter at this point because the government may be tracking it. >> megyn: yet, monica, we have had many people defending the government's right. for years we saw this under the bush administration to probe leaks that endanger national security. this guy holder yesterday said this is one of the worst he has seen in his entire career this leak. he really thought american lives were put at risk by it. >> it's interesting when you look at the eight years of the bush counter terrorism policies. i don't remember the same outrage coming from eric holder and the left when there were countless leaks splashed all over the front pages of the "new york times" and the "the washington post" and "u.s.a. today" on rendition, interrogation black sites and the rest. they were all luxury eighting. four years of public service. it raises the question did he raise that with the president? did he raise it with the president and did the

president then say what are you going to do about it? >> megyn: well, i mean, the president claims he learned about it on the news like he learned about the irs investigation. that's what he claims. we have a hard break. stand by.

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a.p. spying. the attorney general said he couldn't answer. he is 9 a% sure it would have been kohl but he couldn't answer. listen. >> there doesn't seem to be any acceptance of responsibility in the justice department for things that have gone wrong. now, may i suggest that you and maybe mr. kohl and a few other people go to the truman library and take a picture of this thing that he had on his desk that said the buck stops here because we don't know where the buck stops and i think to do adequate oversight we better find out and we better find out how this mess happened. i yield back the balance of my time. >> thank the gentleman. the chair now recognizes the gentleman from new york, the ranking member on the subcommittee on constitution and civil justice mr. nadler for five minutes. >> i thank the chairman and i wanted to talk about a dozen subjects but i think i will stick to three in the time i have. i have no doubt and we have already been hearing much human cry about the

department of justice probe of a.p. records that i think we should put this in context and remember that less than a year ago this committee's republican leadership demanded aggressive investigation of press leaks accusing the administration itself of orchestrating those leaks. then members of this committee want the reporters subpoenaed, put in front of grand juries and potentially jailed for contempt. now, of course, it is convenient to attack the attorney general for being too aggressive or the justice department as being too aggressive. this inconsistency on the part of my republican colleagues should not distract us from legitimate questions worthy of congressional oversight including whether the espionage act has been inappropriately used in looking at leakers, whether there is a need for a greater press shield, which i believe there is, such as measure some of my colleagues have worked to defeat in the past and congressman broad grants surveillance authority and immunity that some of of my republican colleagues

supported and before today have been unwilling to re-examine. those are questions we need pursue and i think today wants rhetoric translates into meaningful bipartisan support into looking into those questions. now, to switch topics, this was brought up together, this committee has engaged in a relentless unfounded and grossly unfair attack on the leadership and integrity of deputy attorney general of -- i'm sorry assistant attorney general tom perez. >> megyn: this is what they do. they lo to give speeches instead of q and a. same thing when hillary clinton went on board they are back to tom perez which is an issue don't get me wrong it's not news of the day. >> megyn: kirsten i want to give you a chance what we heard sense brenner said what about the buck stops here? >> yeah, obviously we need to know who is responsible for it i think the point that jerry nadler was making was also an interesting point and sort of to what monica was saying before the break. about democrats and them responding, excuse me,

democrats responding to these kind of leaks. i think democrats have always been concerned about whistle blowers being targeted in this way. and republicans, frankly, have often wanted the government to go after publications like the "new york times," for example under the bush administration, many conservatived wanted them investigated. wanted their there to be retaliation against them, frankly, for publishing stories that came from whistle blowers. so i am having a little bit of a hard time understanding where the outrage from the plucks is coming from on this point. >> megyn: let me have monica responding. you saw nadler saying why the reversal the rnc was up in arms about it before. now that it's a leak that's causing more controversy and the press is upset about it. the associated press now suddenly it's let's get them. let's get the people who are investigating the leaker. >> well, there are two issues here. first of all, national security links under any administration are very serious because they do in fact, endanger the american people and what we are

trying to accomplish in the world. so that being said, i think any kind of serious national security leak ought to be looked at and ought to be investigated. my issue is that during the bush years, i mean, i remember one instance megyn when the president of the united states, president bush actually called the "new york times" himself and begged them not to put a critical story on -- in the newspaper not to publish it. i think it had to do with interrogations. i could be wrong about the specifics. when the commander and chief physically and personally calling the newspaper and saying please don't do this it is going to endanger national security and the "new york times" went ahead and published it anyway. and they were considered heros. those bush era whistle blowers were considered heros by the left. heros by the public for spilling those. in this. >> megyn: we still have much more to discuss but i have got to leave it to that now we are going to the white house where jay carney is answering questions on benghazi. thank you, ladies. >> you bet. >> are not something that we divulge or make public. i can also tell you that we're always looking at ways how we can provide

more information about this specific issue and i don't have any announcements for you now but we are looking at ways we can make more information available. >> you said this process has been contaminated maliciously. so why don't you let the public take a look at what you are describing. >> i commented on a news report that reflected that an email that had been reported on was actually not accurately reported on. i have said more broadly that this is political. it's -- it is -- you know, republicans are fundraising off of it outside conservative groups are are doing ads on it. you know, this is -- you have reports that colleagues that the speaker of the house is obsessed with it and yet when he had the opportunity to look at the emails, he didn't even go. we know that the emails in question were provided to the relevant members of congress of both parties, including the leadership. and at that time, even though they supposedly knew everything that was in them this did not raise objections about them. their concern about the emails with regards to the confirmation process for

john jonathan were met and the confirmation moved forward. so, it is absolutely political. >> we have in the course of this been focused on what isn't political and what is essential is the fact four americans were killed and we need to find those who were responsible and bring them to justice. secondly, we need to take action to ensure that the inadequate security that clearly existed at the time at the time because we could not protect those four americans be looked at and addressed because so it does not happen again. that is reflected in the arb led by admiral mullen and ambassador pickerring and their unsparing report and the fact that the state department adopted every one of their recommendations. >> might you release emails. >> again, we are looking at, as we have throughout this process, ways to provide as much information as possible. there is, you know, there is the tradition, if you will, or the -- you know, the concern that dates back

two administrations of both parties involving internal communications and deliberations but we are again, as we have throughout, working to provide more information. >> is the president as concerned as troubled by the subpoena of a.p. phone records as he is the irs's actions? >> what i can tell you is that when there are criminal investigations, undertaken by the department of justice, we do not have insight into or knowledge about them. and that is the way it should be. methods or or other information that should not be or is not shared. what i also can tell you is that the attorney general has said that he has

confidence that the procedures justice department is supposed to follow in this case in these kinds of circumstances were followed. but i am simply reflecting what the attorney general said because i do not have independent information and we do not have independent information about ongoing criminal investigation. investigation which, as the attorney general said again, involved -- >> megyn: a lot of breaking news on capitol hill today between eric holder and jay carney. and you heard the press corps pressing him release the emails about benghazi. released the emails that the state department sent and white house responded to on how those talking points got sent. why don't you? you want to release themon d selectively but why not answer all of them?e wr we don't have answers to that but steve hayes is next. and you hear your voice? oh, it's exciting! [ man ] touchdown confirmed. we're safe on mars. [ cheers and applause ]

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>> i'm not going to get into specifics about what outcomes should happen here, but i will tell you that the president feels very strongly about this and that he will -- he wants to see that -- that the actions taken as revealed by the treasury report that are inappropriate are met with consequences. he will have that discussion with treasury officials and he will make clear to treasury department leaders that he expects action. >> megyn: consequences and action. that was white house press secretary jay carney moments ago saying president obama will meet with the treasury department later today on

the growing controversy over othe irs targeting conservative groups, something it admits doing, welcome to "america live," everyone, i'm megyn kelly. mr. carney's remarks come as we are learning extraordinary new details on the irs intimidation of conservative leaning groups revealed in an explosive treasury inspector general report just released last night. the context for this story begins in january 2010. the u.s. supreme court hands down a decision called citizens united. that's a decision that opens the flood gates to corporate spending in elections. something president obama was so upset about he openly lamented it in his state of the union ar dress. -- address. >> last week the supreme court reversed a century of law that i believe will open the blood gates for special interest including foreign corporations to spend without limit in our elections. [ applause ]

i don't think american elections should be bank rolled by america's most powerful interests. and i would urge democrats and republicans to pass a bill that helps correct it. >> megyn: but that was not done. the next few months would see the rise of the tea party and the passage of president's healthcare law over tea party objections. still, the tea party's growing voice puts in the cross hairs of many on the left. [inaudible] >> i think their astro turf. you be the judge of carrying swastikas and symbols like that to town meeting on healthcare. >> megyn: around this very same time, the inspector general now tells us the irs begins, quote, inappropriately targeting conservative leaning groups who are seeking tax exempt status, calling into question the irs's mandated impartiality. that from the ig.

the tax agency targeted conservative groups with quote: unnecessary burdensome questions, end quote. about matters it had no right to ask about like their donors. the politics of those who were tied to the organization and any plans anyone connected to these groups seeking tax exempt status had to run for office. while the irs focused initially on groups with the words tea party in their names, it expanded the criteria inappropriately in the words of the i.g. to include groups with the words patriots or 9/12 in their names. those concerned about government spending, debt or taxes and groups that lobby to make america a better place to live. or, that, quote: criticize how the country is being run. all now being targeted. the ig concludes that what began as, quote: one specialist evaluating such applications evolved into a quote, team of specialists over a period of 18-plus months. the ig finds that of 298

applications the irs selected for this additional scrutiny all experienced substantial delays. 63% were ultimately either just withdrawn by the applicant or remained open with no resolution. in some cases after more than three years and two election cycles. applications not targeted by the irs typically take only four to nine months to complete, compare that with three years. such delays the inspector general concludes may have caused, quote: potential donors to be reluctant to donate to those conservative groups and led to, quote: some organizations withdrawing their applications all together. irs officials told the i.g. they were not, quote: influenced by any individual or organization outside the irs in these practices. but the i.g. finds that irs management was notified as early as june 2011 of these practices, these inappropriate practices which it says remained a problem through may of

2012. in march of 2012, the irs imhitioner -- commissioner went before congress and testified this way. >> you can give us assurance that the sirs not targeting particular groups based on political leans? >> first of all i can say yes, can i can give you assurances. as you know we pride ourselves on being a nonpolitical, nonpartisan organization. and so what's been happening has been the normal back and forth that happens with the irs. there is absolutely no targeting. this is the back and forth that happens when people apply to 501 c 4 status. >> megyn: that was not true. that is absolutely not true. now, we don't know for sure whether he had knowledge that what he was testifying to was untrue but it wasn't true. the ig concludes that irs management has been, quote: ineffective. provided, quote: insufficient oversight and has exposed the irs to potential lawsuits. of the nine recommendations

issued by the ig, only seven have been accepted by the irs. in particular, the irs continues to refuse to better document the reasons why certain applications are chosen for review and then to make public that guidance, those criteria. as a result, this inspector general concludes, quoted: we do not consider the concerns in this report to be resolved. joining me now amy kramer, chair of the tea party express and the extent of targeting, intimidation, harassment, probing into areas they had no business looking into outlined by the inspector general is jaw-dropping in this report. and it is of this group that clearly was considered suspect by these teams of specialists at our supposedly independent irs beginning with you, the tea party and then any group that followed that sounded anything close to sharing tea party values.

>> you are absolutely right, megyn. it keeps coming. there is more and more we keep finding out. within the past 24 hours it's come to it light that the irs actually expedited president obama's brother's charity for tax exempt status. but, yet, there are still some of these groups that haven't received any status yet. it's still on hold. this is unacceptable. it's not a republican vs. democrat issue or tea party vs. obama issue. this is an issue that effects every single american because the shoe could be on the other foot at some point. with a republican president using a government bureaucracy to silence political opposition. i don't care what they say. i do not buy it that this was not for political purposes. quite honestly, i'm surprised they came forward with this but i don't believe everything in this report. no one will accept responsibility. and for an administration that claims to look out for the little guy, they certainly keep throwing the little guy under the bus. when are we going to get adults in the white house that actually put on their big boy pants and say i

accept responsibility, we're going to clear this up and it's not going to happen again. but as we have seen with benghazi and this, i mean, their story keeps changing. their story keeps changing. >> megyn: initial reports were that the inspector general had concluded this was not done for political purposes. i not see that in the report. the inspector general reports the irs denies it was done for political purposes. the ig does not give them cover on that. that is why in the context of this it's important to note as the inspector general does the influx of cash that was coming into the election cycle thanks to citizens united, something president obama was very unhappy about and democrats in general unhappy about. tea parties started popping up that seeking tax exempt status that deserved tax exempt status. this clearly raised flags with the irs. if they had done it to both groups on both sides maybe we wouldn't be here it was targeted. >> organizing for action, do they have their tax exempt status yet? >> megyn: the president's

group. >> exactly. that was just started after this past election. the -- the thing people need to understand is that there is no one, no government bureaucratic crazy crazy that intimidates every single american more than the tax man. what is really scary now is that it has come to light they have released private confident applications to pro-publica. that when you apply for irs information shouldn't be released it's not public yet. once they give you the status it's public. they were releasing according to one group pro-publica we asked for information and the irs gave it to us before the groups had received the tax exempt status. these tea party groups and conservative groups and groups that want to quote make america a better place got their information disseminated without their consent. >> and this is unacceptable. this is agency a that is responsible for the implementation of obama care. and now they are going to have access to all of our personal records? i mean, who are they going to release them to?

this has to stop. this agency, the irs should treat every individual and organization equal and notly and they have are done that here they absolutely have not. >> megyn: the irs claims it zip code -- destroyed the donor list that they unlawfully obtained. we will see. i want to get your reaction to this because jawl i can't bond was naacp was on another network the naacp has come under criticism should it be taxes except? shouldn't it? is it too political? is it not? listen to what he had to say about this controversy. >> i think it's entirely legitimate to look at the tea party. here are a group of people who are admittedly racist, who are overtly political, who tried as best they can to harm president obama in every way they can can you know, they're the taliban wing of american politics and we all ought to be a little worried about them. >> megyn: taliban wing of american politics. >> i have been called a lot of things but not the

taliban wing of american politics. i mean, he is wrong. he is wrong that we are admittedly racist. we are not. this is about our first amendment rights. but, you know what? i think he has forgotten the lessons of the civil right movement that all individuals should be treated equally and fairly by our government. >> megyn: is it not -- that comment is indicative of the mind set some in the country have about the tea party. a group that stands for limited government. they are not a social issue group they want limited government. that attitude is shared by many on the left and may, we don't know, but may have played into this team of specialists that the irs deciding that they required additional scrutiny where no other groups did. >> i just know -- i mean, and it's typical behavior from those on the left when they can't argue the facts and the real issues, they resort to personal attacks. it's nothing more than a distraction. the real issue is the behavior of the irs. personally, i mean, the ig, he worked for the secretary of the treasury who essentially serves the

president of the united states. i would not expect him to do an independent report and call his boss out on this. i'm sorry, i just don't buy it i think congress needs to implement an independent investigative team and get to the bottom of this. and it needs to be a panel of people. not just one person. we need to put a number of people on that and get to the bottom of this because it's not right. and if we open the door on in this time, where are they going to go next? we cannot let this stand. john boehner asking today, i'm not asking about who is getting fired, i'm asking about who is going to jail. who is going to jail in the wake of this. amy kramer thanks for being here. >> thanks for having me. >> megyn: unbelievable story. we will continue to watch the eric holder hearing to see if and when he comments on that and jay carney to see if he comments further on the irs and what it has done. we also got breaking news on benghazi in the last half hour as the white house was pressed to release all of those emails on the changes to the talking points. they released one that they

thought was helpful to them to one news organization. what about the rest? let's see them. if there is nothing to hide. let's see them. steve hayes has seen excerpts of some. he's next. [ ice freezing ]

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>> release the emails. >> i didn't mean to. i forgot to comment to go into the second part. >> benign and a part of the agency process as you have described let the country take a look at it. >> in our cooperation with the investigations and oversight by congress in this we have provided an extraordinary amount of information, thousands and thousands of documents. we have provided testimony by senior officials rerepeatedly in hearings and in person, you know, other forms of testimony it. we have provided to the the relevant committees as well as leadership and staff the very emails that we're

talking about. and that is -- with a unique concession to a long standing position held by administrations of both parties going back years that internal deliberations are not something that we -- you know divulge or make public. >> megyn: unless they find them particularly helpful because at least one email was leaked. the white house moments ago taking new questions on these change changes to the benghazi talking points that's what led susan rice to go out there and tell america a story we now know wasn't true in the days after the attack on the benghazi consulate in september of 2012. why doesn't the white house release all the emails that went back and forth on the issue of the talking points which have been released to some in some forms, one here and one there release them if there is nothing to hide and you heard jay carney's response. steve hayes asked the same thing in his column today. a senior writer at the

"weekly standard" and fox news contributor. steve broke the story of these talking points and how heavily involved the state department and the white house were a week and a half ago. and so now what happened in the wake of your reporting, steve, where you said, look, victoria new land's fingerprints were all over this from the state department saying still not good enough, want this stuff out, no, we are not there yet. building leadership not satisfied and then finally the white house said we're having a meeting on saturday morning and we're going to resolve all of this. and then the following friday we saw john karl with abc news issue a similar report. although he tried to say more about the white house involvement. the white house leaks one email to cnn. jake tapper trying to make ben rhodes look better. suggesting he didn't say do everything state department says. he just said let's get together and discuss it. and the question is, all right. okay. okay. that may have all happened. release the emails. release the emails. let us see the process. why can't we see it now?

>> yeah, i mean, that's the big question right now. i mean, jay carney was complaining last friday about selectively leaking emails and things taken out of context. there is one way for the white house to solve that that's to release the emails. i understand they are about 100 pages of emails that were provided to capitol hill in sort of a short session where they could be read, looked at, examined. why not release them all? i mean, jay carney has been up telling the american people not only in the past couple weeks but basically for the past six, eight months that the white house wants nothing more than to have the whole story told. well, one way to make sure that that happens is to release these emails. and i would say not just the emails. the president, the other day, made reference to his presidential daily briefs and claimed that they were consistent with what we had heard -- what we had seen in the talking points and what we heard from susan rice. i find that hard to believe. maybe he is telling the truth. there is one way for us to find out.

release the redacted transcripts fbi interviews from survivors. if you have things that would effect the investigation redact them. don't share them with us. those survivors have things we would like to know. a cia memo drafted on september 12th by the cia station chief in libya, the top intelligence official on the ground in libya. i would think he is an authority on what happened there and who was involved. release that memo. redact it if you need to. there is a lot of documents that would help us tell this whole story. i, for one, would like to see them. jay carney, apparently and the white house dont us to. >> megyn: whatever ben rhodes did or did not say in the course of this exchange and the emails suggest he said we need to resolve this in a way that respects all of the relevant equities, particularly the investigation he wasn't saying discount victoria nuland we have to resolve all the relevant equities. they had a meeting at the white house involving white house personnel that saturday morning. >> they did. they had the meeting on the morning of september 15th. and some of it was over video conference. some of it was people meeting in person.

but this was clearly discussed. i mean, there was a series of emails the night before that suggested it would be discussed in this deputy's committee meeting and then an email that i reported on after the deputy's committee meeting to susan rice in which she was told in effect what had happened at the deputy's committee meeting in broad terms and suggested that the white house and the state department would further coordinate their efforts as she prepared herself for her appearances on the sunday show. >> megyn: then we have this. the graphic, showing, you know, if ben rhodes and the white house were so concerned about only sticking to what the cia said about the investigation and not state department concerns, then how do we wind up with the cia initial draft that was three, four times longer than the final draft. white house didn't really want its fingerprints on it or want any changes that would effect what the cia was saying. how do we wind up with this. quick answer, steve. basically if you look at the one on the right it's essentially substance free. doesn't actually say much other than the things that are convenient for the administration as it told

its story to the american people. >> megyn: steve hayes, thank you. we have got breaking news on the irs and reports that the agency has pinpointed or has pointed to what it calls two rogue employees who did all of this to conservative groups. that's not what the i.g.? that's not what the i.g.? found. >> i had some lebanese food for lunch. i love the lebanese. i... i'm not sure. enough of the formalities... lets get started shall we? jimmy how happy are folks who save hundreds of dollars switching to geico? happier than dracula volunteering at a blood drive. we have cookies... get happy. get geico. fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more.

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helps him deposit his checks. jay also like it when mother nature helps him wash his car. mother nature's cool like that. citibank mobile check deposit. easier banking. standard at citibank. here in los angeles, that is creating a traffic nightmare. a number of first responders if you look at the video on scene scene right now. very much the same. trying to get into this apartment and find out exactly how dangerous all of these explosives are. the suspect we should note is in custody no charge is yet filed. we will keep you up to speed on what they find inside this apartment. take it away, megyn. all right, trace, thank you. the attorney general just took a question on whether he believes the irs scandal is really just the work of some low level employees.

i want to tell you that there are now reports coming out that the acting irs commissioner is saying it was two rogue employees in the cincinnati office. now, i have read the ig's report. that's not what it says. i will show you what the ig concluded after the break when dana perino joins me live.

>> reasonable amount of time, do you think that these were just some low level folks or do you think it goes higher than that? >> i simply don't know at this stage. we have not begun -- we have only begun our investigation and i think it will take us time to determine exactly who was involved in these matters. one thing i would say is that this whole notion of these 501 c 4 groups, i think that some, you know, inquiry into that area is appropriate. but it has to be done in a way that does not depend on the political persuasion of the group. who does the cincinnati irs office for example who do they answer to? >> i assume that ultimately they answer to the folks here in washington. >> okay. now mr. sensenbrenner referred to the the buck stops here quote in truman's office. i believe there has been a pattern by this administration in not taking responsibility for

failures are a voiding blame, pointing the fingers in somebody else's direction would you agree with that? >> no. taking notes, sorry. that was more breaking news as congressman steve chabot of ohio questions the attorney general who was ultimately responsible for the irs targeting conservative groups for years. dragging out their applications, seeking tax exempt status for months and months and months and in some cases for three years. that has a chilling effect. that doesn't inspire you to keep pressing for your tax exempt status and in fact it did chill a lot of organizations and led 63% of them to either abandon applications for sit and wait for months and months and months. the doj is now in charge of investigating this controversy at the irs but already we are hearing suggestions that this may need a special prosecutor because if there is a link to the white house or elsewhere, can we trust the attorney general to fairly investigate that dana

perino former white house press secretary to president bush co-host of the five fnc. lots to talk about in that answer right there: there is a report from another network, not yet confirmed by fox, that the acting director of the irs is saying this is just two guys, it was two guys in cincinnati, you know, rogue employees, not yet confirmed by us. let me show you what the inspector general concluded. it's on page 5 of the ig report. footnote 14 i have it in front of me. initially, read it for yourselves. the team consisted of one specialist but it was expanded to several specialists in disease 2011. irs washington referred to this team as the advocacy team. this is the team that would be reviewing the conservative leaning applications. now, describe two they have

hundreds of applications to review. and not only did these -- management in june of 2011 and washington directed that they stop doing that. issue going back to june of 2011, knowledge beyond the team specialist. in government and should want to have them cloned and turned into good people. if i were the -- none of this is adding up because if the irs knew about this for three years, then they have have been lying for congress for three years. >> megyn: who in the irs? and at what level? and if the commissioner didn't know when he testified in may of 2012, or march of 2012, why didn't he know theme is doing that?

office of cabinet affairs. so that is a person that liaisons with all of the different cabinet agencies. two way communication. you tell me what's going on from the white house and you tell me what's going on in your agency. don't care if it's bad news and we will send it back and forth. nobody at the treasury department under geithner and now under lew was apparently raising the alarm belsz at the white house saying you are going to have a big problem in your hands when this ig report comes out. in fact, president obama gives in his press conference monday says i learned about this from news reports. that is outrageous. the only reason he put out that very strong and very good statement last night is that they realized there is going to be an overwhelming negative response from the public and the press on this. and now we're going to have to do something about it. so that is why i think the question of whether or not the obama justice department should be the ones investigating the obama irs scandal. i can see why people would say that sounds a little

bit fishy and probably does not give people the confidence they need to believe that it will be done fairly. >> there is the question you heard eric holder reference i do think we should be investigating or taking a look at these 501 c 4 corporations. what is that? what gets confusing when you use letters and numbers. what is it? the inspector general report goes through that in detail. 501 c 3's and those are true charities that want to be tax exempt. 501 c 4's which are sort of social advocacy groups. they are allowed like a crossroads g.p.s., american crossroads, karl rove's group, they are allowed to advocate for issues. they are allowed to take donations that are, you know, tax exempt and advocate for issues. they can't directly support a political candidate but they can advocate for issues. and the government, president obama doesn't like these 501 c 4's and he doesn't like their ability to spend to the extent that they can spend thanks to citizens united. now you hear attorney general eric holder saying that is an issue should he

be going there in the wake of what we have have seen conservative leaning 501 c 34's. i have read jonathan tobin has a piece explaining why citizens united should not to be blame. i encourage people to look at it it i didn't know that eric holder would say that remember, also, though that whoever it is at the irs, several people or the two people, whoever, they actually give before they are approved, information from groups that have applied to a 501 c 3. charity called pro-publica. news organization charity you are not allowed to do that not allowed to give applicant's information. the doj scandal at the a.p. that has high alert. >> megyn: i don't want eric holder listening to my cell phone. he didn't listen. they have your records. >> megyn: the fact that the

two things happened on the same week. people who already had a distrust in government or even a healthy skepticism of government all of those concerns have been reaffirmed. i think president obama is looking at a longer term legacy problem if they don't get in front of this and make it very transparent, very independent, and promise to do something radical to change it. >> megyn: how does this effect the midterm elections? because i think it is going to be much harder now for the president and the democrats to go out there and say kick those republicans out of the house. we want to control all branches of government and you can trust us to do that because we wouldn't be having any of these investigations. you know, we wouldn't be having issa looking into benghazi on capitol hill and so on if the g.o.p. didn't control the house. >> the democrats' hope was that they were going to be able to carry forward the message that republicans are obstructionist. if they could get out of way president obama could do what it needed to improve the country especially when it comes to the country. you could see the scenario where all the stars align

he gets immigration reform and gets the budget and grand bargain. you can see the opposite as well everything completely stalls and the tea party they had hoped had gone away actually now, if they were desperate groups before they are even more aligned now. it doesn't mean they have to agree on everything on the right but they will be energized and you will see i think in 2014 democrats trying to figure out how far away from the president and healthcare reform and these scandals do they have to get in order to get reelected. there will be -- it's not much time left, actually. it's a year. a lot can happen in a week. >> megyn: you have truly made victims. the tea party has truly been victimized in a way that is -- the irs has admitted it? >> only the obama administration could unite the press and tea party in one week. >> kelly: now there is a question how far it goes. independent counsel. crossed ethical line. have they crossed a legal one. let me show you what john boehner, speaker of the house said earlier today.

>> the irs has admitted to targeting conservatives. even if the white house continues to be stuck on the word if. now, my question isn't about who is going to resign. my question is who is going to jail over this scandal. >> strong words and he meant it. he meant to deliver it in that way so it was stark enough so that people understood i take this may be the most serious thing he has ever taken as speaker of the house on the question of a special prosecutor. i believe the administration will resist that as much as possible. because, if they were to allow for one, even though i actually think in the long run it is in their interest to do so. by allowing one now, that would be admitting that the scandal reaches outside of the irs. that there was some sort of influence or intim. >> megyn: right now there is no evidence of that. the ig report says that the irs employees interviewed for the report, which is not a favorable report for the irs, that they said no

one outside the irs was involved. >> when you think of government bureaucrat, do you think innovative, amazing, forward-thinking, let's go and get these. no that is not what you get in particular field office in the country. hard working people that go in and do their job and given direction from washington. i think what is interesting is if the direction to target conservative groups was not explicit, it was certainly implied by the beginning when you showed the supreme court having to sit there and listen to president obama lecture them. >> megyn: the rise of the tea party and backlash against them. >> think of all the things you said if you added all of that up together, you can understand why somebody in government would think we should go after these people. >> megyn: i want to tell the viewers you need to know they keep saying oh it's cincinnati. it's these guys in cincinnati. cincinnati is the headquarters for the irs for processing these requests for tax exempt status. it's not just like it's one of our field offices.

this is where your request goes goes to cincinnati with oversight from irs washington. the ig condemns both of them. washington irs is exempt. they were supposed to be overseeing they talk about the gross management that went on here and the lack of oversight. i don't know whether that is going to be oversight problem, oversight and we blessed it problem. we need somebody that we can trust to look into it i will give you the last word. >> they are facing a laps judgment in crisis. they will not be able to get anything done if they don't figure out a way to pull all the way back, make it very open and transparent and answer the questions slowly and methodically. the irs was too quick to say it was only a couple of guys. suggest. somebody on top of it and appoint somebody independent on top of it. >> megyn: you are giving the conspiracy theirists validity. you are validating their

concerns. i think of the t-shirt i have seen union line which reads what if glenn beck is right? >> yeah, even a broken clock is right twice a day. and now the conservatives have been proven right. i still -- i want to have confidence in government but this is -- it shatters you inside. i. >> megyn: i mean, listen, it's lengthy but pretty easy to read and understand. >> unbelievable that the president learned it from press reports. >> megyn: is it literally unsphbleeivel. >> in my experience that would be unbelievable. >> megyn: dana thanks for being here. see you tonight on the five. in the middle of a busy news day, hasn't it been? new details on aerial castro's defense in the cleveland kidnapping case. his lawyers now say that they will argue that this man has been unfairly portrayed by the media as, in fact, just a loving father and will prove that he is not guilty of the charges against him in a

court of law. kelly's court takes a look at that next. this is george. the day building a play set begins with a surprise twinge of back pain... and a choice. take up to 4 advil in a day or 2 aleve for all day relief. [ male announcer ] that's handy. ♪

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the map asciewzed of holding three women captive in cleveland for a decade. attorneys for aerial castro now reportedly say that he will plead not guilty to all kidnapping rape charges and they are also saying it is not fair the way the media is portraying their client.

they say castro is not a monster but, instead, just a loving father. and that his innocence will come out as this case progresses. joining me me now arthur aidala. jonah spilbore same pedigree. i will admit i'm surprised he is going to plead not guilty. i know everybody does. i kind of thought it would all be a bargaining about what the charges are and what the punishment would be. i guess i'm wrong, arthur. >> yeah, well, you just said and everybody does. it's too early in the proceeding. i mean, you just don't march your client in. even if he tells you already i want to plead guilty, i want to get this over with. you just don't not a week or 10 days after it happens say guilty. there is a lot more that goes into it. the prosecutors wouldn't even have an offer on the table at this point. if they are going to have one. what i think we need to -- having a calm handling this commonly is to look at what the exact quote was. and the quote that -- one of the defense attorneys

said was we are here to make sure that people can exercise their constitutional rights to have an attorney and a fair trial. this is simply to ensure the integrity of the process and sometimes that means you have to take on difficult and hard cases. and i have elected to do that so, these are true believers. >> megyn: but they went on to say they are going to plead not guilty and he is not the monster depicted in the news reports. i mean, johnna, you tell me how they are going to sell that to it a jury if they get any one of the three victims to testify. >> i'm sure all three victims will testify, megyn. i have been prosecutor for a long time and i'm good at it the only person is arthur only he would not get a not guilty we have dog collars duct tape and three women in a basement for a decade. arthur, if this guy is not a monster. is he so evil he makes monsters look good. that's how bad this guy was. >> you have been in a shoe. >> no way he is not guilty.

>> megyn: we have got to talk about. this and then the attorney comes out and says, quote: i can tell that you mr. castro is extremely committed to the well-being and positive future for his daughter, jocelyn who he loves dearly. are you kidding me? >> megyn, doesn't he also say the lawyer goes on to say like i know that sounds crazy, but it's true. he says. >> megyn: mother lug hugging the little girl. >> i know it doesn't make sense but it's true. the bottom line is this 6-year-old under these horrific and tragic circumstances was born in that house and did grow up in that house and the reports are when she came out, immediately thereafter she was saying where is my daddy? where is my daddy? we don't know what the 6-year-old. >> megyn: that tells us everything we need to know about his concern for her well-being, the child he kept locked inside a prison for six years of her life. jonna. >> to me, the fact that he is acting like he cares about that little girl is even more proof that he is a nut job and

belongs behind bars for the rest of his life. when are we going to talk about the children he aborted possibly? >> wait, i want to pick up on nut job because that may be where they're going, after the break. ctim.

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these women for ten whole years, but that's not going to get him not guilty. >> how will they pursue a not guilty verdict in this case? i don't get it. >> they won't. let's be realistic. they are going to go in there and it's just what the attorney said, they're going to make sure everyone plays by the rules, that the government obeys the rules, the evidence goes in the proper way, the judge rules the proper way, that's the greatness of the united states of america. 99% of the chances here is he's going to jail fort rest of his life. we just have to do it the right way no matter how horrific it is. >> what's all this business about there is nothing their climate cares more about than his six-year-old daughter, jocelyn, who he is so worried about her well-being and positive future? is that trying to soften jury pool? >> my guess is that's the truth. my guess is when he meets with his lawyer, that's all he's asking about because that's probably the only thing he had a connection with in life is his

daughter. i know it sounds crazy, but it's probably true. >> really? johna, you think this man is capable of having a connection? >> absolutely not, but capable of being crassy enough to p make it look like he has a connection. >> what's it going to do? >> it's going -- >> you pointed out before the break, he could have had other children, according to the report, and he's accused of having killed them in their mother's womb. >> which is horrific. >> absolutely. he should be lethally injected if that happened and these girls will have to testify to that. >> that's not going to soften the jury panel. thank you, panel. we'll be right back

>> what a day. let me know your thoughts on twitter. thanks for watching. here is sheppard. >> the news begins new on "studio b." another rough day for the president's spokesman answering questions over a bag full of controversy. on the irs targeting conservative groups, the speaker of the house says he wants to know who is going to jail. the white house response, there will be consequences. get into all of it coming up. in another part of town on another big story, the president's attorney general has testified about the justice department spying on journalists. eric holder claims he doesn't know much about it. plus, a look at the president's second term. what lawmakers are saying about these stories and issues and whether they might have an affect on the midterm elections. that's all ahead unless breaking news changes everything on "studio